Mr. Adewunmi Fatunde, is a legal practitioners with over 30 years experience at the bar. In this interview with Assistant Editor, CHINWE MADUAGWU, he says though Nigeria is currently at its lowest ebb there is hope.
TNE: The Senate President and the Inspector General of Police(IGP) have been at logger heads. Recently, the Police tried to prevent him from getting into the Senate Chambers, what’s your take on all that?
Whatever I say here will still depend on what we pick from the different reportages from the media, more or less hearsay. If there was such siege over the house of the Senate President, unfortunately, government has not come out to say this is the reason, they have not even said they are responsible, but we know that the instruments utilised as depicted in the different footages certainly shows that some department of government was involved. Of course, these are government facilities put together from the tax payers money. When you have issues to do with individual differences, or intra partisan political differences, I don’t think that should come into the public glare in spite of the persons involved. The government departments and the National Assembly mouth pieces in the area of their media representation are not communicating. We should learn to do things right in the country. More than 24 hours after the incident, nobody made any public pronouncement, whether denial or confirmation to say what the true state of things were, at least from the perspective of the different persons involved. That’s a problem. Sometimes, I don’t even know how the press manage because when you ask this one he will tell you I’m not in a position to speak or I’ve been barred from speaking. So where do you go?
Things like this make the social media and some other media to thrive. We don’t know why the place was barricaded just rumours that somebody wants to succeed another or somebody wants to prevent another. By and large in my opinion, it’s intra politics, it’s intra party, it’s intra individual. They will sort themselves out except that while this is going on, we are at their mercy which ordinarily shouldn’t be so but here we are.
TNE: The Police IG, denied knowledge of the siege at Senator Saraki’s house and he said he has ordered a probe into the incident. Is it possible that the IGP will not be aware of such an event?
When it comes to things that have to do with power play, people sometimes speak from both sides of the mouth. People are blowing hot and cold on a particular issue at the same time. Certainly, there would have been a particular high ranking officer up there in the police force responsible for the security of the homes or residence of certain categories of officers. If this officer is unable to tell us what has happened, how is the IG coming into the picture? It is the IG that certainly would have posted or be aware of persons in charge of the security of the homes and safety of these high up officers.
We don’t need a probe, no. Just a phone call; “Hello! I just read this in the papers, who is in charge of the security of this person? Is everything okay? If it’s not okay, what’s the problem or issue. You don’t need a probe. A probe for me, if you look at the history of probes in this country, means we may never get to the follow up or outcome. It dies naturally. A probe to me is another way of saying ‘kill it and go, forget it.’ When you remind him about the probe, he will tell you ‘we are still investigating.’ It never ends.
TNE: Are you saying that this one will go the way of the others
Yes. Let me remind us that we have a Minister of Information, you have special advisers and assistants to the President on Information, what have they said? You don’t need the IG. Such persons are supposed to quickly come and say look , we do not know about this or this is the position. You are talking about a Senate President, not someone selling corn or cashew nut in one local market. God forbid, what happens if the life of the Senate President was in danger or was endangered by that seige?
TNE: All the dramas are geared towards the 2019 elections. We recently witnessed the conduct of elections in Ekiti State. First, what’s your assessment of the conduct of that election, how did INEC fare in your opinion?
For you to be able to address some of these issues, it would have been nice if we were able to hold our public officers responsible but unfortunately it’s difficult. Why I say it is difficult is because whilst some results were being released on social media crediting those results in favour of a particular party, when you go to some other media, it’s a contrary result. Now, INEC had said, do not release any results, it’s only results by INEC that are authentic. The other party went on air and announced results. In the final analysis even when you look at the result released by INEC, for me it showed a stiff competition assuming that the election was fair and free. You heard all kinds of allegations of vote buying which is not new. You also had other forms of bribery and corruption which affects credibility of elections, from both sides. We still have a long way to go. In election processes, once you remove credibility, the product certainly can’t be good. I’m not saying Fayemi is not a nice person. I’m not saying Kolapo is a horrible person, but I’m saying the process that produces a leader, matters a lot. However, the Ekiti election, for me is not a pointer to what we should expect in 2019. In 2015 when Fayose contested, it was alleged that he came with so much backups comprised of different security apparatus running into thousands. Some photographs even showed him with a bullet proof vest. So this was like a pay back time, the other party is saying ‘now we are at the centre and we will double the amount of back up that you had.’
If we are looking at 2019, we have other things that may play up in deciding who comes up in 2019. The NLC says one of the reasons why Fayose’s preferred candidate lost was because salaries running into several months were not paid and you would expect somebody like Fayose not to owe salaries. So you ask yourself, we did not hear allegations that the state fund or the allocations was withheld by anybody, and the state was starved of funds. So, why owe? There could be other reasons of alleged malpractices why Fayose’s candidate lost, but that’s Ekitii. Why do we have to take Ekiti as the yard stick for 2019.
One thing is very clear and very glaring, the country is at one of its lowest ebb at the moment. When you have mass killings spread across certain parts of the country and you have the apprehension of the areas that have not been affected feeling that it may be our turn, if you ask me, those are key issues for 2019. Not the Ekiti election. People were looking at Ekiti as what happened in 1983 – Ajasin and Omoboriowo when you had the old Ondo State, but it’s not the same. Now you have Ondo State, you have Ekiti State. With all the people making noise in Ekiti, what’s the outcome of the election? Who did you see on the streets? 2019, has a wider scope. It’s going to be a challenge for every Nigerian. If as it is, at the tail end of the government’s four years you are having insecurity widespread, will the insecurity be controlled and eventually taken care of in 2019 and thereafter? That’s the challenge before every electorate. If you can’t guarantee my security as it is now, I must look beyond you no matter who you are and whatever else you offer in your manifesto. After all, how many Nigerian politicians respect their manifesto? It’s just paper work to comply with the requirements of the law.
TNE: From what you are saying, I get the feeling that you are assuming that the votes will count in 2019. Are you really confident that the votes will count in 2019?
I will tell you what I believe; in 2015, everybody would have believed or most persons would have believed, depending on which camp you belong, that Jonathan would return as the incumbent and that he would do, I won’t use the word undo, and come back, particularly since the the PDP had a wider spread. But what happened? He didn’t make it. So we have advanced beyond 2015. The challenges we have now is quite serious. I was watching the killings in parts of Adamawa, Plateau and other areas, you need to see what is happening in the IDP Camps, are you telling me that such persons if armed with their PVCs would not defend their vote. If Jonathan could lose in 2015 as an incumbent, what stops any incumbent from losing in 2019? Nigeria has grown.
TNE: If we have grown as you say, why is vote buying still an issue?
We have a challenge with our economy. It is in Ekiti that you have ‘stomach infrastructure’ and you have different ‘infrastructures’ in different states. They all know how they reach out to the people. But there are some non-governmental organisations and some other interest groups who are saying, ‘if anyone comes to you, collect their money. That’s part of your national cake, but go and vote your conscience. Let’s look at the larger society; in 2015, compared to 2018, we were not as conscious as we are now. If I know that you cannot guarantee my peace, my home state, my property, why do I want to vote you coming from wherever, whether PDP or APC? Remember that in 1985 when Bababgida stepped aside, you would never have believed that with all the state machinery as a military head of state, he could have succumbed. Again, who would have ever believed that NADECO would survive the fire power of Abacha? I’m not a moralist in this regard, but I tell you what I found out in all Catholic Churches – prayer for Nigeria in distress. Talk to any Catholic and they will tell you that, that prayer works and it works wonders. We thought we were in distress when Jonathan was there, different form of distress and God took away Jonathan. We have another scenario, it is still the same God. If it is time that Nigeria is salvaged and taken there, it will happen. I have never seen anybody who says that Nigeria will collapse, but if this will lead to collapse, I’m sure Nigerians will step up. INEC won’t survive it. If INEC tries anything, I can assure you that they won’t succeed.
TNE: Are you saying that if Nigerians are pushed to the wall there will be negative reactions
Oh, yes. You know, two things are very glaring, the consciousness you have in Nigerians today as I said earlier is not what you had in 2015. We can see better and clearer. What would have happened if Jonathan was still there? They will be saying ‘oh, if we had known,’ but he also stepped aside. Somebody else is there, but we have not known yet because if we do, I tell you nobody is going to tell Nigerians when they will match on the streets and put to effect that word “enough is enough.” It’s not a matter of INEC. We are having the build up already. A few months ago, the Catholic Bishops said all Catholics should match to the government house in Lagos and they responded. Before, people were docile but you needed to see the adherence to that call by the faithfuls and that is just in one state. These are part of the electorates that will vote in 2019. The unfortunate thing is that that protest seemed to have hardened certain hearts. After that protest, Catholic priests and Catholic Churches were attacked. That was a signal.
You’ve also had situations where people have put themselves together from all over the country to say they are matching to the Villa. They’ve done it, so such persons or group of persons are not giving up. Come 2019, you’re not going to say, somebody must retain his seat or somebody must lose out. I don’t want us to close that gap and go and sleep and say ‘we know this person will win, don’t mind them, that’s our fate.’ No, it won’t be like that.
People are still protesting the current killings. You don’t have such killings in Rivers State, but I tell you that even in Rivers, there was a protest and we are close to 2019. You hear some General Overseers (GOs) now saying, ‘go and get your PVCs,’ so INEC can sit down and take a decision, but the electorates know better or they are knowing better. The awareness, I must say is improving.
TNE: On the issue of killings in the country, do you think the government has given it the necessary and needed attention it requires?
Unfortunately no, and that’s why I tell you that 2019 is beyond what happened in Ekiti because in my own opinion if some group of persons who demonstrate or are about to demonstrate, can be rounded up, arrested and even prosecuted, and you have another set or group of persons, who when you read the different accounts from persons who are involved , are committing what is called genoside, mass killings running along the line of a particular region and a particular religion, going about freely, you would know that there is a problem. This mass killing is not once, it’s not twice, it’s not thrice. How many people have been prosecuted? How many people have been arrested? A Commander of a particular task force in Plateau State was able to arrest about 20 persons, again we heard they said, set these people free or send them to Abuja. Why do you have the due process of the law? Why do you have the rule of the law? The people who are responsible for this mass killings, they are not masked. They are people who are known either to their sponsors or to their protectors. People are agitating and they are saying, ‘why do you have the whole of your defense team from a particular region and religion?’ Some are also saying, ‘can you do a reshufflement to show a balance,’ and the people who are said to be behind these mass killings are saying ‘no, don’t do it, don’t touch it, we don’t want it.’
It seems to me they are saying this can continue, nobody cares. It’s a sensitive area. I watched a clip where a member of the House of Representatives stood up and said the Hausa Fulani man values his cow more than the life of a human being. Now, fast forward, the recent killing in Plateau was said to be on account of the loss of 300 cows. We must wipe out all the villages in that area. Where are we heading to? Are you saying that come 2019, these persons who have suffered so much will not defend their votes? In Benue State, they use trailers to ferry corpses for burial in 2018 in Nigeria, and you think that is palatable to any one? Forget about political party affiliations. If you want to know the value of a human being, visit the emergency ward of a hospital or go through a spot where an accident just happened. When you see the blood of a human being, you would almost shrink. When you see the flesh or bone of a human being, something will strike your senses and here you are people are going into mass murder, massacre and nobody seems to be saying these are the people responsible. It doesn’t work like that. It may just be a prelude to an outburst that may come up.
If you are saying INEC will come out and do this or that, well, it is entitled to do anything it likes. The electorate too know where their vote is cast. They know the reflection where it should be.
TNE: In your opinion, what should the government be doing about the issue of insecurity in the country?
Oh, massive. We are talking about the wiping out of a whole generation in some areas. We are also talking about the wiping out of a village or town completely. The killing in the Benue, for instance, surprises me. In Makurdi, the capital of Benue State, you have a Nigerian Air Force base. The airport belongs to Nigerian Air Force. Even if a private person or an individual wishes to use that airport, it is strictly regulated. I will tell why the regulation; some of Nigeria’s best fighter jets are there at the Nigerian Air force base in Makurdi and, of course, when you have the Nigerian Air Force base with these fighter jets, you have their supports, that is, the foot soldiers. I begin to ask, ‘how can these killings be going on in Benue State and you have a Nigerian Air Force base in Makurdi? The location of the base is like 20 minutes drive to Makurdi town. Even, where the Air Force base is can take you to Cross River State.
So you want to believe that security issue or question of marauders going into the villages, some not too far from the base should not arise. Someone must be in charge. Somebody must give orders, somebody must take orders, somebody must executive these orders. With the Nigerian Air Force only, Benue shouldn’t have such problems.
The Army also has a battalion in Makurdi. The distance between Makurdi and Lafia, the capital of Nassarawa is under a 100 kilometres, a straight drive from where the Army battalion is located and these are the same routes for these marauders. Again, the distance between Makurdi and Enugu, the state capital of Enugu, is maximum three and half hours. From all these you can see that the area is beautifully and well fortified to meet up any security challenges. So, the back ups that are available, even if they don’t want to utilise the jets because they may say these are small fries, are more than enough with the complements from the Nigerian Army and the combatants from a squad of the mobile Police on the way to Enugu to deal with the issue. But it seems now that except these people are instructed nothing may ever happen. I’ve just told you now that Lafia to Makurdi is about an hour. You have a battalion of the Nigerian Army on that axis. So, how do these marauders access the state and nothing happens?
That brings me to this issue that if there are no instructions, what they call orders, what can these foot soldiers do? It’s a problem and you know in the military parlance, they are supposed to obey. Not too long ago, the governor of Zamfara cried out. He is the Chief Executive but he’s not the Chief Security Officer. The governor of Benue State says, I have an anti-grazing law and it seems that for enacting or signing that bill that’s why for a long time Makurdi is at the centre of the killings. Don’t forget we are talking about a civilian governor in a democratic setting. It’s not the same as a military governor. If it were a military governor, he will just send his ‘boys’ and the matter will be settled and dealt with.
TNE: Six times the courts have granted bail to ex NSA Sambo Dasuki. Yet government says it can’t release him citing national security as its reason. As a lawyer, is government justified in its actions?
There are certain things you cannot defend. If you arraign Dasuki, that means you must be prepared to submit to the rule of law and follow the due process. There are different ways of addressing the Dasuki matter than what the government is doing currently. When you arraign Dasuki and he is granted bail and he meets the conditions, if indeed you subscribe to the rule of law and you have respect for the other arms of government, certainly you can have no choice other than to subscribe to obey because having ruled, you can only respect that pronouncement.
Are we back to the Decree no 4 of those days? We have to juxtapose it. You can always arrest, rearrest for different reasons or offences. But for crying out loud, if you actually want the judge, that’s the judiciary and the other arm to perform very well, you must respect their decisions or their views. The decision is, release this man. Government has no reason whatsoever not to release him. It‘s not a position that you can defend. Dasuki is being hounded and he is being kept there in prison, the terrorists terrorising a region and certain religion are all over the place. We don’t need double standard. We don’t need a different law for a different set of persons or personalities. Release him. Don’t forget that Dasuki’s trial has not even commenced. He’s just getting what we call a temporary freedom. It’s just a bail. If he abuses the bail, you can always recall it. Apart from that, the man says his health is questionable. Again, should we not have respect for the dignity of live. We are not talking about whether Dasuki is guilty or not or the person of Dasuki. Once you have arrested him and you have arraigned him and the court has granted him bail and he fulfils the conditions of that bail, you must let him go on bail. It’s not the same as the case being struck out or dismissed. Government has no reason for still keeping him.
TNE: Finally, Senator Saraki has left the APC for the PDP. Did you see that coming?
Oh yes. If on the floor of the Senate he announced names of defectors and as Senate President he then ‘quickly’ adjourned, I believe that was to allow those who defected to relocate and go and strategise and I think we are beginning to see the result of the adjournment and we will hear more. The music is getting louder and the dancers are also getting more in number. I saw it coming. The truth is that in the final analysis most of the elements at the top echelon of both parties are about the same. The era of party discipline ended with the second republic. You know when you have party discipline, you first of all subscribe to the party. It is the party that sponsors your election. It is the party that says to you, take this manifesto, this is our party manifesto, add it to your programme for your constituency or for the local government areas that you cover or for the senatorial district that you cover, incorporate it. It’s like if the APC, for instance, or PDP says free education at all levels. Any candidate of any of the parties must be ready to embrace the free education programme. When you want to carry out your constituency projects, you must have free education at the back of your mind because the party structure says free education at all levels or at certain levels. In the second republic, the late Bola Ige was a member of the then Unity Party of Nigeria (UPN). When the party found out that he was in some kind of romance with or had a link with Obasanjo, they set up a committee to investigate and Bola Ige described the committee’s sitting as ‘a night of the long dagger,’ because I’m sure they would have grilled him thoroughly. Party discipline then was tough.
TNE: What are the implications of all these defections for the APC. Do they still have a chance in 2019?
It’s doubtful on both side. I tell you why it is doubtful on both sides, in the area of integrity and principles, I can’t see any fundamental difference between the two main parties. For instance, Saraki, just like many of the the other defectors, was in PDP for years and then he crossed over to the APC. Now the weather condition there is not going well, he moves back where he came from. Is the APC managing the situation very well? I don’t think so. All these issues about impeachment, we’ve seen it before. We are back again to those dark old days. If you must impeach, follow the due process and also believe in the rule of law.
Two days before the governor of Benue defected, the APC Chairman said he was not going anywhere, that they’ve met with him and spoken. After two days, he was everywhere saying ‘oh that man, we have to deal with him.’ This was as soon as he said he was leaving.
I think what Nigeria needs, if it’s possible, is that everybody who has served one or two terms at whatever level should leave. We need a clean slate.
Going back to PDP is no solution. Very soon, we will all see what will happen and I hope those who are shouting alleluia over these defections, who are happy and applauding it would not say ‘oh, had we known,’ because most of these people are strange bed fellows. These are people who are not talking about the electorate or the masses, they’re talking about themselves, their personal estates, they are not bothered about anybody else. We need a departure from them.
One of the best things I’ve read in recent times is the South East saying ‘we don’t want 2023 presidential ticket. What we need is a restructured Nigeria.’ I love this because what if 2023 comes and they don’t get the ticket? Unfortunately, it’s too late now to dig into restructure but you can make it a condition; whoever is coming in 2019, one of the things he must address is restructure because it is clear to us now where we are going to. Even these defections have shown that we are more interested in looking at ourselves from a particular region. We are not looking at Nigeria as a state, as one state to see how we make the country get out of the woods.
Somebody promised change, he couldn’t deliver the change. Rather, I see a lot of arrogance, I see a lot of inflexibility, people are not flexible. Now some people are saying I’m going back to my roots. Some of these roots they are going back to, what is their contribution? He was a two term governor, he’s in the Senate; pls what is his contribution as governor of Kwara. It’s not a matter of being personal or hatred. Tomorrow, somebody will come and say ‘I want to contest for Presidency.’ If you can’t guarantee safety of life and property, for me in Nigeria now, you don’t have any business in governance. We need a departure and PDP is not even an alternative. Defection will not solve our problem. Those who are going there (PDP) they’ve been there for so long, when the economy was good and bouyant why did they come out? Now they are defecting again. It won’t work. We need clean hands and it’s not a matter of PDP or APC. They should go. Let us have honest people who are prepared and ready to serve. We need that master- servant person at all levels.
When you look at the society as a whole, too many things are wrong. How we sort it out remains a challenge.
TNE: But can we sort it out?
Why not. This country is blessed in the areas of human and capital resources. You just need the right persons to steer the ship. Where the person will come from, I don’t know. If you say you are recovering so many millions and these are not imported funds, they are not from money laundring but are coming from this country, there’s hope. It’s just a matter of doing what’s right. Take Lagos State, for instance, every month it is said the IGR is 30 billion, how many states realise that in Nigeria, including FCT Abuja? So if they realise 30 billion, they could just take 50% of it for infrastructural development. London would be a second place to Nigeria. Power supply will not blink. They can invest 10% in agric outside Lagos. When the products are ready, bring them into Lagos State, food will be very cheap. The remaining they can bank. There’s no need to borrow.
Look at our National Assembly, what does it cost to maintain one Senator. People want to leave government house and go to Senate or leave Senate and go to government house and they are all on retirement. When you’re a senator, it is for life. When you’re a governor, what you take is for life. We don’t need all this. Some people have been in the Senate for two to three terms. They are not the only best brains around. Unfortunately, these are the people that we worship, but what is their productivity? Some have not sponsored one bill.
TNE: Talking about recovering money, a while ago, the government said it was going to distribute part of the returned Abacha loot to some of the poor people in the country. Do you think that’s the best way to make use of that money?
In Nigeria, government policy will depend on who is driving it. You and I may agree or differ. Unfortunately, we don’t have a data bank that is reliable. If we have a data bank, that projection may be good. But without a data bank how do you execute it? How do we know that that is not a mere statement but the fund would still be dissipated and the poor would still be there?
TNE: In the face of all the numerous challenges, what do have to say to Nigerians?
There’s hope. There was a time in this country when you could not say anything or mention a particular head of state. It was fear all over the place. Nobody trusted anybody. But we woke up one day and the person who was with him till about 2a.m was informed that by 5a.m, he had answered the call. So when you’re there, put in your best because you don’t know what tomorrow has. We are approaching what I see as the end of the road for all kinds of ills in this country. No great country pronounced or recognised as great gets there like a piece of cake. It takes a while. So there’s hope.
READ ALSO: EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: Government Cannot Regulate the Media – Edetaen Ojo